Menu
We previously did a show about 7 yo friends kissing private parts. We’re getting more calls about this!! Why is this happening? What should we do if it happens to our kid? A licensed professional counselor walks us through action steps on how to respond AND practical ways we can try to prevent it from happening in the first place.
We previously did a show about 7 yo friends kissing private parts. We’re getting more calls about this!! Why is this happening? What should we do if it happens to our kid? A licensed professional counselor walks us through action steps on how to respond AND practical ways we can try to prevent it from happening in the first place.
Jamie Mershon is a Licensed Professional Counselor with over 15 years of experience. She is the founder of One:6 Christian Counseling, rooted in Philippians 1:6. The heartbeat of this verse is that we are called to growth, not perfection. In that, there is hope, healing, and transformation for His glory—even on a counseling couch!
Jamie serves as an advisory member and regular podcast guest for nextTalk and is a frequent conference speaker for churches, schools, and ministries throughout San Antonio. She is the wife of her “gentle giant” husband, Michael—seriously, he’s 6’8”—and the proud mom of three sweet little girls!
Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it.
Speaker 1:
Welcome to the Next Talk podcast. We are a nonprofit passionate about keeping kids safe online. We’re learning together how to navigate tech, culture and faith with our kids. We are back with Jamie Mershon. She is on our advisory council. She’s a licensed professional counsel. She has been on the podcast many times. Jamie, we’re glad to have you back.
Speaker 2:
Thanks for having me. I love it. I got my coffee in hand, so I’m ready to go.
Speaker 1:
So the reason we’re here today is because recently I was contacted anonymously by a podcast listener who said seven year old boys, friends, kissing private parts, and she needed help.
Speaker 1:
And so I reached out to Jamie for, hey, I just want to do a podcast because this is anonymous and I want to reach this parent and I don’t know how to, and maybe other parents need this resource. So Jamie and I talked and Jamie really was so helpful she didn’t have time to get on the podcast at the time but she was very helpful in that podcast. Since then we’ve been contacted by other families that this is happening and it’s always like the young boys like same age or maybe one year apart. So I have been messaging Jamie again getting her advice on some things and my mind has been blown with these conversations and so I asked Jamie. I was like Jamie, can you come on? Can we just do a quick podcast from your office one day? You know virtually. And cause I want to unpack this? Because I think this information would be very, very helpful to any parent who has a young boy especially.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, so, like you said, you’re seeing the rise of hearing more boy to boy and that is probably someone always been there, but I think there’s just more awareness around it. I think parents are more in tune and there’s also just cultural things that are, you know, adding to normalizing boy to boy abuse or boy to boy just sexual orientation things.
Speaker 1:
Well, and what’s interesting to me is some of these stories, the verbiage that the kids use. They will literally say we were sucking penises, like they will say that terminology. And, jamie, I’m I’m just going to tell you like I truly believe it is the rot of porn in our culture, because we covered on that previous show, yes, sometimes the kid themselves seen porn and they acted out, or the kid could be inappropriately touched by somebody else older, like a true abuse situation that they’re acting it out, somebody else older, like a true abuse situation that they’re acting it out. But but the third thing is I think also that we can have a group of kids playing on the playground and it takes one kid to see a pornographic video and say, on the slide, did you know you can suck each other’s penises, yeah, and then we have all this exposure of kids like thinking, well, what is this?
Speaker 2:
Right, and I think something that you have shared, mandy, is just on the cry outs. You know it’s getting younger and younger, to six year olds, to eight year olds. Right, you know there is an innocence at that age, right Of like they are just saying things out of truly, just like hey, did you know, like when you mix these two colors?
Speaker 2:
together you get this color right. There’s just this level where they’re just like literally just delaying information and some kids hear that like oh, did you know that two boys can kiss each other’s penises, right? Some kids hear that they’re like that’s weird, that’s gross, you shouldn’t do that, and they trash that thought. Other kids will ruminate on that, right, and like well, what does that mean, or how does that feel, or what would that happen if I tried that? So I think there is this level of innocence because the children’s minds there’s a level of like right and wrong. Obviously, it depends on what the conversation’s been, have been happening at home already, and so how equipped is this child and do they know how to navigate that? But there’s still just such this innocence, right, where I don’t think that kids are truly repeating and saying this stuff to be malicious or to be disruptive to other kids. I think there is just such a you know, nonchalantness around this hyper sexualized culture we’re living in, and so there’s a lot of passing comments that are just being thrown around.
Speaker 1:
Well, and I think I mean this is why next talk is so important, and like the red flags, because, because any word you don’t know that’s on there. If anybody’s talking about body parts, that’s on there. So it should create. If you’re talking to your kid, hey, these are the things I want you to tell me about, it should create a red flag in their mind to go home and tell mom or dad, hey, somebody’s talking about a penis on the slide, Like, what does this mean? And then we can prevent this exploratory curiosity touching that we’re I mean way past, really touching that we’re seeing.
Speaker 2:
Right, and something that I think is just really helpful for parents to instill at home and it’s just quick and simple is don’t repeat it, report it, and I think it goes along. When you are that safe, trusted adult and the kid has a red flag thing happen, that you just remind them. Thank you so much for reporting this and not repeating this, because naturally kids are curious. They just they are right and so that is a good thing. You know, when we’re learning in school or when we’re out exploring. But curiosity on this hyper-sexualized culture that is leading to a lot of exploratory things, that I don’t even think that it’s, you know, necessarily an imbalance of power. I don’t think it’s manipulation. I think it’s kids hearing something and plants a seed, they get curious and it moves to exploratory. And that’s where it gets tricky.
Speaker 2:
When we think about the exploratory phase, it’s not necessarily always traumatic. It really could just be. I heard about this thing. I was curious what that felt like or what that looked like, and me and my friend tried it. You know, not only are kids curious, but I would challenge parents to get curious themselves, that if something does get exposed to the light, you know we are so quick to go to fear or shame and blame and just kind of try to just ground yourself and like get curious. You know, it doesn’t always mean that a abusive thing is happening or a traumatic thing is happening. We just see this shift in what things look like sexually because of what kids are hearing and seeing and because it’s happening younger. There’s this innocence and there’s this natural curiosity.
Speaker 1:
Okay, there’s a lot to unpack there.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I just did a lot of talking.
Speaker 1:
First of all, don’t repeat it, report it. That should be a new phrase in everybody’s home. That’s fantastic because it limits exposure to other kids and it gets it to the right adult to have a situation. So don’t repeat it, report it. Great phrase.
Speaker 1:
So we’re talking about here two boys, because we’re really seeing the uptick with two boys and that’s why we’re focusing on this right now. But what you’re saying is sometimes in our parent brain we go to oh my gosh, that’s abuse, that’s trauma. Somebody’s doing something to our kid, but oftentimes because they’re the same age, there’s no imbalance of power. There’s just two innocent kids who have taken something that somebody’s shown them or talked to them about or they’ve seen on a screen and they’re being curious about it. So this idea of exploratory versus trauma I really want to hone in on this, because what I am seeing happening is the parents are traumatized and they’re making it trauma in the kid’s life when it wasn’t trauma. But at the same time I want to be really careful here. Drama Right at the same time, but at the same time I want to be really careful here. It’s not to be shifted and pushed under the rug either. Exactly exactly.
Speaker 2:
I think there’s so many different angles to look at this because we definitely don’t want to minimize it right, it definitely needs to be addressed but I think, if we can keep it the right size, so it’s a cantaloupe, it’s not a watermelon, it’s not a grape. When we first find out about it it’s a cantaloupe, it’s not a watermelon, it’s not a grape. When we first find out about it it’s a cantaloupe. Right, it’s serious, right Because something is being awakened and we’ll talk more about that in a little bit.
Speaker 2:
But it’s serious because you know we don’t want our child to experience those things, to explore those things. You know there’s a right and best way that God has those things to be awakened and it is, you know, in a marriage or you know, kissing and a committed relationship. You know things like that. There is a context around these things, right? And when we start thinking that that context is around play that becomes very confusing to children, that that context is around play that becomes very confusing to children, and so meaning, keep it the right size is it doesn’t necessarily mean that sexual abuse is happening, it doesn’t necessarily mean that this huge traumatic thing is happening, but something serious is happening and we have to get curious and we have to ask the right questions and figure out how did we get here?
Speaker 1:
The underlying thing is what made you think of this? Because, because a five-year-old is not just going to come up with the term sucking penis out of nowhere. So the key is where did you hear that? And that takes very calm conversations, not I love the phrase you use not shaming and blaming the other kid.
Speaker 1:
Don’t assume your kid is perfect and wasn’t the initiator. And also I just want to say, just because your kid is the initiator doesn’t mean your kid is an abuser. Absolutely this is not. It would be very different if it was a 17 year old kid with a five year old. That’s an abusive situation Absolutely. But two friends like this we have to be extremely careful with.
Speaker 2:
And I think the bottom line is it’s like we have to just, you know, investigate the situation to make sure kids are safe, Because you know hearing, well, I got this idea because somebody shared it on the playground. Compared to, oh, I have a cousin who has, you know, sucked my penis, that is very different, and so we owe it to these children to be curious and investigate in a level that we can make sure, like, okay, is this our culture, or is this coming from a place where this child is actually a victim and is being preyed upon and they are acting out things that have been done to them? Those are two very different conversations. But if we get defensive or we put walls up and shut down, we can’t get to the root of where did this come from? And so the initiator is not an abuser. We just have to make sure that this child is also being protected and find out the source of this. Where did this idea come from?
Speaker 1:
This pertains to any gender, like so. If it’s a girl and a boy, two five-year-olds and they’re licking each other’s private parts, this is the same conversation, but the reason I’m not bringing that into it is because I haven’t even had a case like that. All of these people that have contacted me have been two boys, so that’s why we’re really focused on two boys here.
Speaker 1:
I really want to, you know, make sure that we are making that disclaimer here. I want you to give us some examples. If a kid is processing like trauma, even though it may not be abuse, it’s two five-year-olds, but they’re processing it like holy moly. What are the signs that we need to look for?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think you know, you’ve probably maybe heard about check engine lights before, but check engine just lights are just things that are out of the normal, right. And so you know if a child is getting headaches, not just like a one and done, but it’s like all of a sudden they’re getting headaches. For you know, if a child is getting headaches, not just like a one and done, but it’s like all of a sudden they’re getting headaches for you know, a long amount of time, or weeks, or days, nightmares, bedwetting, a shift in their grades, or you just notice that they’re more anxious, or I don’t want to play with this kid anymore. But what do you mean? You guys are like best friends. Why don’t you want to be around them anymore? Right, just kind of get you know to the bottom of, maybe, what’s going on here.
Speaker 2:
And it depends on the child too. Some kids just have an extremely heavy conscience and some kids are just like, oh, we just did this thing and they just move on, right, that this is not just a one size fits all and it really is kid to kid. So some kids are, you know, they’re those true empaths. Some kids are very that heavy conscious. Some kids, you know, you have a next talk home. They are well aware of like this happened. I should have told my mom or my safe, trusted adult. There’s so many factors that go into this. So sometimes it’s you know they’re not directly saying this happened, but they’re showing us and telling us by all of these things where, where did this come from? Like there’s a baseline of how your child was, and then now all this stuff is happening. That should even turn our check engine light on and be like, okay, something’s off here.
Speaker 1:
So one of the things is I’ve been trying to get these families to go to a counselor just so a counselor can figure out if the kid, if parent, has trouble. Like how is this kid processing? Do we just need to have conversations about boundaries and consent and private parts or private like those kinds of conversations, or is this kid processing like trauma and has a tummy ache all the time and like there’s a major problem here that I need a counselor for? But sometimes parents can’t figure that out on their own. Yeah, and I want to be honest, like I, I struggle because I’m scared.
Speaker 1:
I’m going to send a kid, especially out of state lines where I don’t personally know the counselors, like within Texas I’ve got counselors that I trust, but outside of Texas and I’m being contacted by people outside of Texas now I’m scared to send families to a counselor because I’m afraid it may be an exploratory situation where we need to talk about boundaries, consent and have all those. I mean not sweep it under the rug, but have a major reset in our home about what we’re reporting and all of that kind of stuff versus what if the kid is just processing it like exploratory and they go into a counselor and a counselor makes it trauma for them, because sometimes that happens, jamie, and because not all counselors are created equal and a lot of times parents. What I am finding is they’re scared of that they’re scared of. So what do you recommend for parents and counselors to make sure that everybody’s on the same page here with these really young kids?
Speaker 2:
That’s a great question, mandy, and I’m glad you asked, because I always suggest that the parents do their own session. Um, so they may already have established care with you, know their own personal counselor, and so set up a session with your personal counselor and say, hey, I need to process something with you, this just happened, right, and then they may know a safe, trusted counselor who they work with, like, so you know, if it’s the mom and I’m going to my personal counselor, right, and she’s just working with adult women, she most likely has connections with trusted counselors who do pediatric and minors and children that she could refer out to. But that would be the first place to start is, if you don’t have a personal counselor, then you know, go to your church and see if they have a list of safe, trusted, safe, trusted I’m kind of on the kid version here right, safe, trusted counselor right.
Speaker 2:
But they will have a list of vetted counselors and I would set up a parent session with them and say, hey, we had something happen over the weekend or we discovered something over the weekend. We would like a session to just process this with you and get a feel, for, yeah, I feel at peace with how they’re telling us to proceed. Or I don’t know if I agree with that. I’m going to seek counsel on that or pray through it, or maybe we need to check out another counselor. And so I think that you know, again, keeping it the right size of knowing okay, it’s been brought into the light.
Speaker 2:
Our child is safe. They are no longer around that child right now until we come up with a plan. So everything’s just been kind of paused. Now we are going to seek out help to figure out how do we navigate this. What are the next steps? So, if you have a personal counselor, go to them and they may have a list of their you know preferred counselors, of who they refer out to. Or if you don’t have a personal counselor, go to your church and vet them out through setting up a counselor with them first and just seeing how their take or how they’re processing it or how they would handle it if that makes sense Okay.
Speaker 1:
So if this happens, we want a counselor with mom and dad first.
Speaker 2:
Yes.
Speaker 1:
And also too, I think that will help the counselor see, is mom and dad processing it like trauma?
Speaker 2:
Exactly.
Speaker 1:
Because the kid may not be processing it like trauma, but we are, and then we make it a bigger deal at home. I mean we are like won’t let it go, right, you know what I mean, like we can’t heal from it because we’re stuck there. We’ve got to be careful that we’re not creating trauma as parents.
Speaker 2:
Because a lot of kids because it wasn’t rooted in like sadistic or manipulation, they really just think like, oh, we were just trying this thing out, we were just playing it. I mean, I definitely think it causes confusion and it awakens something, but that’s still very different than traumatic, right, and so I think definitely, you know, it provides the parents a safe place to process it and get their head in a clear, grounded place of how to proceed.
Speaker 1:
I like what you said, that it awakens something because even if your kid is not processing like trauma and it’s just like exploratory, I mean in my mind I’m equating it to our generation like playing doctor.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, right.
Speaker 1:
You just, and we needed to have more conversations around boundaries consent private parts, all of those things that we weren’t having. And so even if the kid is just processing like it’s curious exploratory, like what is this, you cannot push it under the rug and act like it didn’t happen. I think still a kid should meet with a counselor, but after the parents have met with that counselor just to process and make sure everything’s okay and that you have a right read on your child, you need a third party to kind of help with that.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and sometimes you already have established care with a counselor and in the ideal situation it’s ideal if we have established care, whether the parents have established care or whether the child has established care, but sometimes that’s just not the reality, because a lot of these kids are pretty young and they haven’t had no reason to go to counseling, right?
Speaker 2:
Even if it’s just a check-in after the parents have met with the counselor and the child does a check-in with that counselor, it doesn’t even mean that that child is going to get a session that is centered all around what happened. It could just be getting a gauge on. Does this child seem anxious? How does this child interact? You know, if it’s a play-based session, right. If there’s a lot of aggression in their play or if it’s just like hyper fixation on organizing and they need order or they want to be in charge, there’s lots of stuff that counselors can seek out through play. And if nothing else, that child has just had a positive touch point with the counselor, Meaning oh, when I go see Miss Jamie, I get a snack, we play games.
Speaker 2:
We laugh right. And that way, if something does come on later on in life where they’re just like you know, a few months later because kids process very different than adults, right, it may show up later, it could be in a few months. Very different than adults, right, it may show up later, it could be in a few months and then you say, hey, remember, you know, when we went to go see Miss Jamie and you guys, you know, just got to hang out and talk would you like to go see her again and talk about some of these things that you know that have been keeping you up at night? And so that’s helpful, because then they have this established place that they have a positive experience with. And so then they’re like oh yeah, like I’ve already been there, I know I like going there, I know it’s safe, um, like they feel comfortable going there again.
Speaker 1:
So. But you don’t recommend just sending a five-year-old in with a counselor that you don’t know. We don’t want to do that. We don’t want to do that.
Speaker 1:
Okay, now I want to talk about. I want to shift and talk about what it looks like with the other family. Yeah, because oftentimes I think we want to blame and we want to accuse and we have to be really careful here, because even if one of the kids initiated, like you said, there’s not an imbalance in power, it’s probably not manipulation. If anything, it’s worst case scenario here. The kid is acting out what an older person has done to them. That’s like worst case scenario. Most likely it’s the porn culture Either they’ve seen porn, they’ve heard about it or something like that. So how do we approach the other family? And I know you said earlier when this happens you may want to pause the playdates for a minute until we get a solution going forward. But what is this conversation look like the first time we contact the other family?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think you know, the more we can keep things disarmed, the better. If you’re the parent reaching out, you’ve had time to process this or you were the person who saw it. So, number one, it’s so much easier for you to have a totally different experience on this because maybe you’re the parent that walked in on it and you’re also the parent who’s had time to maybe process this with your spouse or a trusted girlfriend, or, you know, you’ve had a little more time. So you have to remember they’re hearing this for the first time and they didn’t see it Right, cause a lot of us think our child would never do that or what do you mean? Like I’ve never known them to have this side to them. So, just a little pre you know context, that that might be some of the things happening in the background Because, again, they didn’t see it and they’re hearing it for the first time. So if I were calling you, I might say something like this hey, mandy, are you in a place that you can talk? Right now? I do have kids around you. Something happened and I just I need your attention, attention and just, you know, want to make sure little ears aren’t around. Okay, so then you’re like yep, I can talk, you know. All right, mandy, I need you to just bring something to your attention.
Speaker 2:
The boys were playing and I was, you know, just super alarmed by it, and I know you’re the type of parent that would want to know this, because we parents similar. We both want to make sure the boys are safe, we both want to make sure that they have healthy friendships, and so when I went upstairs to just check on them, I walked in on them touching each other’s penises or licking each other’s penises. Have you ever had an experience like this before? Or, you know, I know you have older kids. Have you ever had this happen before? This is something new to me and I want to handle this well. And so what are your thoughts on, you know, what I just walked in on, or something along those lines? Make it more of a conversation is kind of what I’m getting at.
Speaker 1:
You’re not blaming, you’re not, it is hey, we’re in this together. This happened with our boys, their best friends. What do we do? Yeah, and I would say too, like you may not get the good response, because because, think about it, like you said, they’re processing this for the first time, right, right, so so give the parent a minute give them a minute and like, let’s say, you know it’s a next talk, mom, they’ve been listening to podcasts.
Speaker 2:
They’ve been, you know, doing creating the next talk home. And not all homes are created equally and moms have different sources of what they’re listening to and if they’re listening to stuff, and also we all carry our own personal stories and experiences, so sometimes it could be like, oh no, not again. It’s like this generational thing happening, like you know, that happened to me and now it’s happening to my child, or there could be things happening in that home that we have no clue, and so there’s so many things that we aren’t even privy to that it could be bumping up against.
Speaker 1:
Like don’t take it personal.
Speaker 2:
Yes.
Speaker 1:
Is what you’re saying. If they respond badly to you or they hang up on you or they start, you know, like you know, overreact, because that is shocking news to somebody that maybe doesn’t expect it or has trauma in that. Absolutely In my opinion, it doesn’t always mean that the boys need to stop being friends. Because I feel like if both parents handle it correctly, both talk to their kids individually in their own families about boundaries and consent, and then come up with an action plan like like okay, we’re not doing sleepovers anymore, or from now on it’s only outside when you’re playing, you know, in certain areas or whatever, I think this could be handled where it could be fine that the boys be friends again. I think it could even be more traumatic if it was just exploratory and we needed to just have conversations about boundaries and stuff, and then we yank the friendship away because maybe a kid, maybe they didn’t parent, didn’t see it.
Speaker 1:
But what I’m hearing a lot is one of the kids confide in their parents. That’s what I’m hearing. I haven’t worked any cases yet that the parents have walked in on the young boys, but I have heard like my kid was telling me this, you know kind of alluded to it I’m like what? And then the kid, like you said, the mom, got curious and asked her to asking questions like what do you mean? Tell me more that kind of thing. And so in this situation, you know they’re, they’re exploring there, and so to me it’s just about okay. We need to reset this friendship, we need to look at boundaries and we need to both parent families get on the same page and they could still maintain a friendship.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and I think the main thing is, both parents, or both families, have to, you know, be aligned with the same plan moving forward right, because if somebody’s in denial or somebody you know is going to take something like this and turn it into this right then where?
Speaker 2:
does it become more harmful than helpful? Because, you know, friendships are such a huge deal. And so two kids who you know have had you know healthy play things, take a turn to exploratory, and now I never talked to that kid again. That’s a huge loss in their life. And then also they’re left alone. I’m like the last time I ever saw this person was when we, you know we’re licking each other’s penises. I mean, really think about the level of shame that causes, um, the level of blame, cause we don’t know the narrative that that little one might be creating around it. And so, you know, there are some situations where, sadly, yeah, no contact does happen because the two families cannot align or, you know, it’s not safe, and so you have to make a hard decision.
Speaker 2:
But if you can have two families that can work through it together, it can really be a great example of like repair and recover and boundaries look different, conversations look different, how they play looks different, but it doesn’t mean it’s a total like end to it.
Speaker 1:
Well, and I think it’s so interesting how you look at it from a counseling perspective, Like if the friendship just ends abruptly. You know you’re thinking about the shame, I’m thinking about the families. I’ve helped that if a kid confides in their parent that something happened and then all of a sudden the parent says you can’t be friends with that kid anymore, that kid is never going to confide in that parent again. I agree with that Right.
Speaker 1:
It’s just like. It’s just like I saw porn on my phone and then they never get a. They get the phone yanked out of their hand. They’re never going to tell you again when they see porn and they get their phone yanked out of their hand. They’re never going to tell you again when they see porn and they’re going to see it again.
Speaker 2:
Right, because it’s costly, and it’s costly to them because something important is taken from them.
Speaker 1:
Yes, and I do think it could be such a beautiful thing Like God could take a curse you know, this porn-sexualized culture that’s been poured on our kids and created these type of environments. That is the curse that we’re dealing with, but God could use that as a blessing, as a good thing, as a launching pad to have better conversations about boundaries and consent in your home.
Speaker 2:
Well, I really think that lifts the shame too, because you give this friendship an opportunity for repair and recover. And it’s two families that worked really hard together to keep their kids safe, investigate, like hey, are both boys safe? Did something happen to one of them that spurred this on? And so I think it could even enrich just the friendship between two families of like, wow, like we worked really hard to make sure these boys were safe and we worked really hard to make sure that their friendship safe and we worked really hard to make sure that their friendship is safe and healthy. And so, you know, it could be that thing that kind of makes or breaks families and friendships, because this happens within families and cousins and happens within relationships with neighbors or school friends and all of that.
Speaker 2:
And so sometimes you know it’s not just we’re never going to see them again, it’s okay, so I can’t talk to you, but I passed you in the hall or I can’t play with you at this game, but we used to always play gaga ball at recess or whatever. And so it really becomes this huge stressor because the whole, you know, this child has to now create their whole life of like don’t talk to him, don’t play with him, can’t look at them. You know we always used to go over there. Now we don’t go over there, don’t talk to the mom. It’s just very unnatural, right? Because unless there is harm continuing or the other family is just not in the place where you know they want to repair and recover. Yet that’s a different conversation. But truly, if you to repair and recover, yeah, that’s a different conversation. But truly, if you can repair and recover, that is so beautiful and that truly there’s a way to do that.
Speaker 1:
Well, yes, I love that and and we’re not saying that if the other family gets defensive and I mean they’re probably going to get defensive at first no matter what but that’s what I mean. Like give them a couple of days and then say let’s go to coffee. Like I really want to talk this through, like I, you know we don’t want to lose your friendship, but we got to figure out what happened here, why, and prevent it from happening together.
Speaker 1:
But if you can’t get to that point, you may have to cut off the friendship and you may Unfortunately yeah.
Speaker 1:
And I think that may be a conversation, even with the little saying hey, I want you to be their friend again. But we do have to talk about what happened and why it can’t happen again. Not that there’s like, I mean, you guys were just curious, we get it, yeah, that is not activity for five-year-olds, so we have to talk about that and they won’t Right. So it kind of leaves us in a situation where we can’t play with them until maybe we can have those conversations.
Speaker 2:
Right, we’re going to take a time out, we’re going to pray. You know that we can recover and whatnot. But, yes, just give them language of like. We have to take a time out until you know, know it can be safe for y’all to play again, or we can find an appropriate way for you to play, and sometimes that takes time. So what are some other friends that you could play with?
Speaker 2:
Or what are some things we can do when you’re sad and you’re missing this friend, you know, because it is a loss you know, for them it was just, we were just two kids having fun, and then, you know, we tried this thing and now all of a sudden, yeah it, it is to their detriment you know?
Speaker 1:
Okay, you said something about earlier, about it awakening something. Yes, I’m glad you circled back to that Even if it’s just exploratory and there’s no processing like trauma or anything like that, and even the two families are working together and they’re doing the great work together, yeah, it still could awaken something sexually in a kid before we want it to.
Speaker 2:
Right, because it awakens this curiosity and it stirs up stuff, right? I mean, we’re all sexual beings and that’s not like, oh, when you hit puberty, this sexual side comes to you. There is a reason why our body responds, despite our age, to sexual touches or to, you know, exploratory things, right, and so we want to make sure we tend to that part of our child, um, because it does, you know, tap into that arousal structure. That is something that has been awakened and we definitely want to address that. And just, you know, it’s God’s best that these things happen within marriage or they happen within, you know, like kissing in a committed relationship or whatever you know you subscribe to as a family of like boundaries and and all of that right and religious beliefs and your faith. And so the context, like God has a best plan and sometimes things happen outside of God’s best plan, but that doesn’t mean that you know we’re ruined.
Speaker 2:
It just means that we have to work together to make sure that your body is not wanting more of this or you’re wanting to do more of this, and so that’s where mom and dad come in to help you, because when this stuff gets awakened, your brain may have said huh, this is kind of confusing and weird that my friend and I did this, but my body said it felt good.
Speaker 2:
And so there’s a level of normalizing and helping them explain that sometimes your brain is confused but your body is saying that felt good and I want to do that again. Or it starts at you know, I did this thing. You know, touching my penis is a one, right? Well, now I want to stroke my penis, and now I have to do that before I go to bed, right? We want to make sure that it doesn’t progress into something bigger and more, where it turns into addictions and then, when it turns into like coping mechanisms and soothing and I do this when nobody’s around. So we just want to keep tabs on all that and make sure that our little ones don’t feel alone in this.
Speaker 1:
I think you’ve given some very helpful points. If this happened, how to handle it with getting your kid to a counselor, processing with your kid and then also dealing with the other family. I think you’ve given great tips here. I also kind of want to zoom out for a minute, and you know we talked a little bit in the beginning about the porn culture and we definitely believe that it has played a role in seeing these rise of cases. I also want to talk about we did a show a while back about Anxious Generation. Jonathan Jonathan Haidt truly respect his work that he’s doing. I’m, you know, retweeting his stuff like good stuff, good stuff, yeah, great stuff. But I do think we need to be careful because this unsupervised play that he’s pushing I’m for it. Kids need to be outside. They need to be less on screens. But in my world, what I’m thinking about is if these kids have unsupervised play and they have no next talk conversations in their home about private parts and boundaries and consent and what should make a red flag go off in their brain.
Speaker 2:
We’re going to see the things we’re seeing Exactly Because there is an emphasis, almost kind of like bringing back to the eighties. They talk about a time in that book where kids had all this unsupervised play and I’m sure, yes, there was like exploratory things going on. Like you said earlier, doctor, right, that happened in a lot of unsupervised play, right, and a lot of us probably really do have memories of that. But we also aren’t probably on a couch traumatized over it either, not to minimize it, but it depends on how far that went, right, but a lot of kids have that exploratory play in their memory.
Speaker 2:
But what we’re seeing now is, you know, phones, tech, access to porn, and even what porn is looking like. You know, I use the word vanilla. It’s not vanilla anymore, it’s dark, it is violent, right. And so even how porn looks, you know we’re seeing more, you know, man on man and just orgies, just very extreme situations in porn, right. So kids, what do they do? They act out stuff through play. So if they’re seeing things or hearing things which takes us back to how we started this episode right, it is not uncommon for them to reenact that stuff, especially if they haven’t had those next conversations. When it talks about the amount of unsupervised play, I think that we have to make sure that we’re doing the preventative work and some of you listeners are thinking like we have the kid house right, or once in a while, our kids go to other houses. We have to start normalizing between parents of how do we just talk about the expectations and the family rules that we hold on or have created in our homes, right?
Speaker 2:
You know, I have three, you know, small children. Fourth, second, kinder, and so we have, you know, those are prime ages for kids, over playing, all that kind of stuff. And I have started like, when families drop their kids off, hey, here’s the rules in the Rashawn house. Or, you know, these are our expectations, you know, with how we handle tech, closed doors, all that kind of stuff, what are rules that you would like to be honored by your child’s playing here, right, or what are things that are rules in your home? And so it’s essentially just normalizing and starting the conversation, because some parents have no problem dropping them off, like and saying, hey, what’s your rules for tech? We don’t do tech, like they’re very comfortable starting that conversation. Some parents are very uncomfortable with that conversation. They’re like, I feel so awkward. I, like you know, feel like I’m assuming that their house isn’t safe, and so I think there’s a level where again?
Speaker 2:
just make it a conversation hey, here’s how we handle things in our home. How do you handle things in your home? Great, and if something arises I’ll call you and fill you in, you know, and you can tweak those as they get older or whatnot. But I think that is a really safe and honorable way to do preventative. And also, like, if you’re going to have the kid house, you know, if you have a two-story house, maybe it’s like, hey, we, you know, until you really get to know somebody you might say we just are doing downstairs today it’s a downstairs play day, maybe when they’re older, upstairs, or maybe when they’re younger it’s upstairs and when they’re older it’s downstairs.
Speaker 2:
You know your kids, you know the dynamics, but you have to be very in tune with your ages, the type of kids are hanging out with. What are the other friends values, how is their house set up? You know, in regard to rules and stuff, because some parents drop them off and they’re like oh, we trust you, like they’re good, you know we’ll pick them up at five or whatnot, and they aren’t really interested in the rules or they haven’t really thought about what their family rules are, and so that might be a child that’s not super equipped in the next talk lingo, right. And as a parent, it’s okay to say hey, johnny, we’re so glad you’re here. You know, here’s just kind of some rules at our house that we, when kids come over, like here’s a rundown of our house.
Speaker 1:
I love the practical things that you said, because because also you said that you kind of have set up your house to think about this in mind, like you have a clubhouse in the backyard and you didn’t put walls in it. You want to get open, like things like that just be intentional, yeah and. And I also love just like your practical list. Like we’re not going to go behind closed doors with anybody. You know if you got to go to the bathroom it’s one person at a time. Um, you had mentioned that to me off camera. I love the first story and second story, cause we see a lot of it going upstairs, yeah, right, and and I think you’re also right with the. You know you said with the Jonathan Hyatt stuff, you’re like we want to go back to the eighties kind of thing and and that’s great and I think it’s needed with kids and outdoor play needed.
Speaker 1:
But we don’t live in an eighties culture anymore. The porn has changed what they’re hearing and thinking about. So if we just send kids out into the backyard and we’re locking them outside for eight hours like in the eighties, there’s going to be lines crossed because we’re not talking to them about what the porn culture has really done to their world and we don’t tell them what the porn culture is and we implement the red flags. You know, in every situation that I’ve recently worked, I thought, man, if they, if we had implemented red flags here, they would have caught it. Because one is any dating, marriage, kissing, you’re going to tell me, and the other one on that list is any body parts, if you, and if you see anyone in a swimsuit or less, you’re going to tell me. Whether that’s on a screen or in person, you’re going to tell me. Yeah. So if we had been implementing these lists, these red flag reporting list, with our kids, the red flag would have gone off, right.
Speaker 2:
And I think you know, when it’s talking about the unsupervised play, it’s kind of like, oh good, I’m off duty. When it’s like, no, you still have to do those check-ins, right, every 15 minutes, you all need something to drink. You doing, okay, in here, you want a snack, it doesn’t mean you’re hovering and you’re just, like you know, hanging out on the bed and being like what’s the tea? What are we talking about? Right, but it’s just these little pop-ins that there’s a presence of a parent and it can just come across as just you know, do you need something to drink or eat? Right, and it’s not disruptive, it’s not interrupting, you’re not trying to, like you know, take over their time, but I think those check-ins are really important. Or even, you know, just when you have kids in your house and you see things that you really, like you know, compliment them on that, like, hey, you’re so good about just every time you go to the bathroom, making sure you close the door. I’ve noticed that about you. Thank you for just, you know, keeping yourself and others safe. Or you’re really good about, you know, we have a younger one in our house. You’re really good about being a good role model for, you know, our six-year-old Thank you.
Speaker 2:
And so, even when you have those age differences too, it’s figuring it out what to do with that of. Just like, you know, I have a sixth grader and we have a five-year-old like, how do we navigate that kind of stuff? And so the I mean we can have a whole podcast on play dates right, and how do we handle all that. But a lot of that is, you know, conversations to figure out. Yeah, how do we want that to look in our home? And it’s going to look different for everyone. But these are just things that we have to think about because I’m learning that too. You know it’s like not all three girls are having friends over at the same time. How do we include each other? Do we include each other? You know how do we navigate this stuff, because there’s lots of different ages and things that are appropriate for one age and not another.
Speaker 1:
Well and definitely, you know, tackle the screens thing, because I see a lot of kids going to playdates, getting exposed to porn through that way and, like you said, we just don’t I mean they’re just put away there’s no screens. It’s a playdate.
Speaker 2:
We’re going to interact with each other and you know, there is a level of involvement where I think parents, it doesn’t mean that you have to, and the book even advises against this right, like, have the kids create what they want to do, right, but you also have to have available things like you know games in a closet, crafts in a closet, or you know things that they can come up with and play with too. You know, and because board kids you know they sometimes get creative in the wrong kind of way and so just have opportunities for them to have free play, but things are like resources for them to have.
Speaker 1:
Is there anything else we missed or anything else you want to say, as we’re, you know, speaking to parents who are really we really honed in here on the two boys and kissing private parts and really I think every parent of a young boy needs to be educated about this, that this is happening more and more. Yeah, they need to be very intentional about the red flags and talking to their kids about boundaries and consent.
Speaker 2:
Yes, you know, I was just looking over my list of just things that I wanted to make sure we got through today and we really did get to them all. I mean, there was a lot of stuff to unpack here. As I’m looking, you know we’re almost at an hour, but I think, as a whole, these are things that I truly believe will be super impactful and keep kids safe. And we’re all learning together. I mean, amanda, you have older kids, I have younger kids, and so I’m learning, with a lot of the listeners out there, of figuring out what works and how to have these conversations with parents, and so I think that is the biggest thing that the Lord is teaching me is having a partnership with other parents and just kind of normalizing of how do we honor each other’s you know rules in each other’s homes. How do we work together to keep kids safe and really just keep those walls down, because I think a lot of parents maybe haven’t done their own work and so it becomes one of those things where they put up a wall or it’s like no contact, and I think my heart behind all of this is just really parents working together, because that’s kingdom work right.
Speaker 2:
All kids deserve to be protected. All kids deserve to be, you know, advocated for and fought for. And just the word that my takeaway from all of this is get curious, like what? What are these behaviors rooted in? Get curious on how other families like their rules, their values, all that. How are they raising them? Um, and even when having those hard conversations, you know, just get curious. Hey, this happened. I’m curious how your thoughts on all of this, or have you experienced this before?
Speaker 1:
Right, I think those are very disarming words. I think that’s all good takeaways. I would also add and we we maybe should have covered this earlier on to parents, like do not jump to labeling your kid a certain sexuality or anything like that. I probably should have said that from the beginning, especially at this young age, they’re exploring. It’s just like they heard it, they’re curious, whatever. And also like don’t, don’t make that a watermelon. Like, don’t make, they’re not thinking about sexuality or their identity or they’re not thinking about anything.
Speaker 1:
They’re thinking. They heard it and then they did it and it felt good, right?
Speaker 2:
And so it’s kind of like a little girl who loves to wear blue and a baseball, a backwards baseball hat, right, like she’s still a girl. Right, like it’s just we can sometimes we get fear-based around this, like what does that mean? Or you know, why is he doing this with another boy? And it’s just like kids, they’re just figuring it out, right, and so do not label them and do not put that on them.
Speaker 1:
Yes, like you said. Well, it’s like the parents making it out bigger than it needed to be, and we just need to make sure we’re not doing that.
Speaker 1:
And then you also mentioned off camera, and I didn’t think we covered this. But I just want to say this too. You know we say this don’t make it a big deal, you know, make it too much. But I do just want to reiterate and we said this several times do not brush it under the rug either, because this could happen in an exploratory age between peers, and then 10 years later it’d be in a more abusive type situation and the kid is confused that that wasn’t a big deal with my five-year-old friend, so why is this a big deal with? Now? It’s uncle and me, right, and so we always want to like, never sweep it under the rug. Just, we just don’t want to make it a traumatic experience if it, if it’s an exploratory.
Speaker 2:
Absolutely, and I think too, like you’re saying, in that situation, absolutely Like something is awakened and we, you know, kind of covered the degrees of what that can look like, you know, exploratory, awakening to lines getting crossed, very different awakenings, but they still both deserve to be honored, talked about and taken seriously. And it’s going to look different how we treat you know those situations, but they both deserve to be talked about, honored and, yes, Amen, jamie, I’m so thankful for you that you have helped me navigate this.
Speaker 1:
This is something new calls that I’ve been getting that I’ve haven’t gotten in 11 years young boys kissing their private parts I’ve. These are new calls for me, yeah, and I think therapists we’re.
Speaker 2:
We’re seeing the rise of this too, and so I’ve just really been processing it a lot, and so, if there’s a little clunkiness on my end, I’m even, as a therapist, like really, you know, figuring out how do we navigate this wisely and how do we partner with parents to, you know, navigate this shift that we’re seeing.
Speaker 1:
Well, I mean part of being on the front lines, like we both are, is we’re seeing new things and we’re trying to warn parents, and we may not always get the exact right solution, but we’re saying you’ve got to have your guard up here. This is happening, and so we’re coming alongside and giving you the steps we think are good, but we’re still learning too. Every day. Every day, culture’s shifting and new things are happening with our kids. Thank you for your partnership. Jamie, appreciate you and I want to say parents, if this is something that has happened in your home, don’t freak out, pause. It just doesn’t mean your kids are bad. It doesn’t mean you’re a bad family. It means your kids are growing up in a highly sexualized culture and you just need to process with them and so come alongside of them, reach out. If you need prayer or help or want to talk it through with us. We are here for you at Next Talk.
Speaker 3:
Next Talk is a 501c3 nonprofit keeping kids safe online. To support our work, make a donation at nexttalkorg. Next Talk resources are not intended to replace the advice of a trained healthcare or legal professional, or to diagnose, treat or otherwise render expert advice regarding any type of medical, psychological, legal, financial or other problem. You are advised to consult a qualified expert for your personal treatment plan.
This podcast is not intended to replace the advice of a trained healthcare or legal professional, or to diagnose, treat, or otherwise render expert advice regarding any type of medical, psychological, or legal problem. Listeners are advised to consult a qualified expert for treatment.
Subscribe to our monthly newsletter for all the latest podcast titles, events, and nextTalk news.
nextTalk started in a church with a group of parents who were overwhelmed that their young children were being exposed to sexualized content. Today, we’re a nonprofit organization in the state of Texas and an approved 501(C)(3) entity by the Internal Revenue Service.